a Porsche 911 has never been affordable to the masses, nor has the Dodge Viper --but both sell like hotcakes to a niche market albeit, with the latter car being from a company that is known for cheap mini-vans and econo-boxes. so i don't see your point.

Making a car more affordable doesn't always keep a car in the market longer. When the 911gt3 RS was released, it was sold out within a few months. The price tag on that car is about 150k or more. Also the RX-7 and Supra were forgotten because the US market wasn't ready to accept imports as sports cars (this isn't fact, only my opinon).

The point I was trying to make in my previous posts was that worth is based on a few things, one most important then the others, driving characteristics (especially if you are buying a performance car). The problem is we don't have the car here so it's hard to determine what it is worth. I can say this, based on previous models and the potential they had, I'm willing to bet that this car will be worth every penny. Like you said in your post:

"The Z car was special not only because it was a great car but also that it was such a bargain that people who could not afford a Porsche or some other high performance car could still get that same feeling in a Z"

Nissan is trying to do the same thing with the GTR. Only this time they are trying to provide an affordable 911 Turbo.

i will add, too, that the S14 240SX was discontinued in the USDM, yet continued to sell abroad in a new generation model of the S15 Silvia --exactly because of the fact that at the time, the late 1990s, the whole drifting/import scene was scarcely commercially viable here even though the rest of the world was already well into rallying, GT racing, and drifting. sales of these RWD sport compacts were on a downtrend, and automakers only saw this continuing and thus losing their interest as profits slumped and cars seldom sold enough units. but they were wrong.

the problem was that the timing couldn't have been any worse because in just a few short years thereafter, around 2000/01, the scene began to infect this country like a virus --only after the major cars of that scene had been discontinued for the USDM availability (the RX7 continued to sell overseas long after it was discontinued in the USA).

this is coincident with the film "fast and furious," literally --that film put drifting and street racing on the map in the USA, officially making it a legitimate enterprise and pursuit. as well, sales of old Supra Mark IVs and earlier gens began to rise in value, eventually going beyond their original purchase prices after they were 5 to 8 years old.

now we are in the full throes of the muscle car renaissance. take notice at the horsepower wars that have been raging for the past five years. look at how the United States' automakers have risen to the occasion of this revitalized automotive era of power and design. this is literally another golden age of the automobile. look at the amazing cars that have been created lately. the list is endless. and many of them are good old american muscle cars, with quality of fit and finish to match the best europe or japan has to offer.

this is true.

therefore, a new direction for the GTR heritage is not only overdue, it is entirely welcomed and avidly awaited. Nissan is but one automaker who has risen the bar for their own design ethos. but this trend has been happening across the board, including such stigmatized underdogs like Hyundai and Kia. as well, makes such as Cadillac have been winning design and quality awards in the industry, eclipsing Mercedes and BMW in many areas. Cadillac and Corvette have been top contenders in circuit racing such as LeMans, ALMS, and Rolex.

more than likely, Nissan will enter these ranks with their GTR, as that car will be literally on par with Ferrari and Porsche and Corvette C6-R. this is a big step and a big deal for Nissan. this is not an affordable car for the "masses." but compared to exotics such as Porsche and Ferrari, will be dirt cheap.

I think what people need to remember about the Nissan 300ZX turbo, Supra Turbo, Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR4, and RX-7 is that there were far more things involved in their demise than just how good a performance car they were. Things like changing emissions and FMVSS (crash test regs) standards, flucuating Yen rate, economic downturn in Japan, and the advent of cheaper higher HP American alternatives made the U.S. market unprofitable. In the end it was lack of customer demand that killed these cars in the U.S. If the Japanese sports cars of the early to mid 90's were selling like hot cakes, they would have enjoyed more success.

One has to remember that just because a car is popular now, doesn't mean it was popular when it was new. Although these cars have a lot of "tuning potential" now, it is very rare for people to buy a new upmarket vehicle and immediately spend thousands upgrading it and almost certainly voiding the warranty. By convention these cars had only 275 HP from the factory and they were heavy. The end was inevitable...

-AL

I agree. Nissan has always said that the goal was 911 turbo performance at entry level 911 pricing.

The problem for Nissan will be keeping the price low enough (right aroung $70k) and the performance and quality high enough. Nissan shouldn't have any problem with quality since they have experience with Infinity. Although I believe the price and weight will be a challenge.

The automotive press has already leaked that Audi is running into price problems with the R8. Due to it's all aluminum mid engine structure it is just too expensive to manufacture and still price competitively in the U.S. Audi will likely lose money on every car sold in the U.S.

GM could barely get the C6 ZO6 corvette to market for $69k. Add to that the GTR is made in Japan, AWD, twin turbo, etc.. Good luck on meeting $70k. Incidentaly GM is raising the price of the ZO6.

-AL

they did raise the price for 2007 on the Z06....

thats the thing... a domestic car Z06, 500hp, rear wheel drive etc... and its $70k... the GTR will be more... Car and Driver thinks $80k and 500hp.... although most every other magazine says 450 and $70k.... it is a bargain when you think what it packs for the money....

do I think $70k is too much? yes..... why? because I can try and afford $60k... 70k is pushing it.... guess I'll wait for a used one for a couple years

at that level, the difference between $70 and $80K is like ---who cares. if you can barely afford a car at $70K, then you probably have no business even buying a car at that level. to the one who can afford a $70K car, an extra 10 thousand dollars figured in per month is not going to matter very much.

again, this car is not supposed to be "affordable" nor economical. it's a sports car with exotic level performance. whom ever says Nissan is "supposed to" make "affordable" cars only is living in an unrealistic fantasy world. GM and Dodge both make cars for the masses, often making some of the cheapest economy cars out there --and they also make the Z06 and Viper--two of the most powerful mass-produced cars on the earth --so why are they "allowed" to make the Corvette and Viper? ---but Nissan is not "allowed" to make the GTR? what the f** is with this pervasive mindset?

what kind of sense does that make to decry Nissan and undermine it's goals of making a car --their halo legend GTR-- beyond reach of most people to "afford"? ------ none. to this day, i find it laughable and disturbing that some car enthusiasts on various chat forums "insist" that we are all "entitled" to an "economical" car from Nissan! WTF?! why?

what is it about the GTR that creates so much hate and contempt, then? as well as this stupid overly-critical naysaying and doubt about Nissan as an automaker?! why not pick on GM, then --they're virtually bankrupt yet pouring millions of dollars into their ALMS and LeMans C6-R programs. and GM makes cars like the Malibu and Cobalt.

Price is certainly going to play a huge part in the future of the GTR. Absolutely no doubt sales will initially exceed demand no matter what the price. The real question is at what price will it continue to sell, for surely price is determined by what the market will bear.

The new GTR will be sweet, but with the 600 hp Viper and ZO6 already heavy handing the GTR in power and likely lap times, the $70k - $90k niche is going to be competitive to say the least. Add to the mix that Toyota is rolling out a new V-10 500 hp Supra, and Acura likely fielding a new AWD 500 hp NSX, all in about two years or so. Sounds like a lot of really nice cars all competeing in a limited niche market...

Audi is already facing the horrifying realization that its new R8 AWD rear-mid engine supercar will likely sell for less in the USA than it does in Europe. Potentially losing money on US R8s. Ouchh!!! Rumors are also circulating that Bugatti (owned by Audi) may not be able to sell all 300 Veyrons as planned... which may lead to Bugatti not producing the mini-Veyron or convertible and even possibly closing its doors. Yikes!

The upside is that it will definitely be a buyers market in 2010!

-AL

the Z06 did about 7:46 if I remember on the NUR..... i bet the GTR will be right there...

The GTR may lack about 50hp (maybe, who knows), but with awd, rws and more it will be formidable...

the thing the GTR doesnt have is the vettes heritage here in the USA...we know is has quite a rich history, but someone in the USA looking to spend $70-80k MAY want the name Porsche, Mercedes, BMW...or can go with monikers they know like Corvette or Viper....

The NSX sales are bad because of performance per dollar.... I dont think we have any real accurate representation of what the GTR will do.... will it fall like the Supra and NSX? maybe... lets hope not

Again, iy you can afford $70k then you can maybe afford $80k.... but like I said...$60k was about my max ...so I was hoping to afford one, but now it looks to be out of my range