Porsche Accuses Nissan Of Cheating At Nurburgring
10-01-2008 | 02:05 PM
#21
Banned
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 77
Read more carefully. This was your original statement:
"So.... The ZR1 beat the GTR by how much now?"
Catapult merely changed the ZR1 to Z06 to say that you should be comparing apples to apples. I quoted what he says so it'd showed the Z06 beat the GTR by how much.
Are you referring to that Car and Driver test that had the M3 beat the GTR AND 911 Turbo (funny how you didn't mentioned this part); this test was heavily criticized as the only reason it won was because it had more space and was daily drivable...C&D forgot that these two cars was built for one purpose.
And Camaro, why do you dislike the GTR so much anyway. You started out here as being very open-minded. And no, I never said you were a fanboy but you are accusing everyone here of being one.
"So.... The ZR1 beat the GTR by how much now?"
Catapult merely changed the ZR1 to Z06 to say that you should be comparing apples to apples. I quoted what he says so it'd showed the Z06 beat the GTR by how much.
Are you referring to that Car and Driver test that had the M3 beat the GTR AND 911 Turbo (funny how you didn't mentioned this part); this test was heavily criticized as the only reason it won was because it had more space and was daily drivable...C&D forgot that these two cars was built for one purpose.
And Camaro, why do you dislike the GTR so much anyway. You started out here as being very open-minded. And no, I never said you were a fanboy but you are accusing everyone here of being one.
I just agree with alot of people that the numbers the original GTR's put down will be impossible to duplicate with US Spec cars because they were ringers.
10-01-2008 | 02:38 PM
#22
GTR Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 77
). Personally, I don't know if the car used was a ringer and if it is, I don't really care as I don't think Nissan is the only guilty part. I don't buy my car based on ring times and I'm sure most people don't either. I do see where your coming from though, the inconsistent 1/4 times and dyno numbers lend some bit of credibility to that belief. I have never seen such a big deal made of ring times by manufacturers (hech, even Honda (next NSX) and Toyota (the on again off again LF-A)is getting into the mix). The vast majority of people out there will never drive any of these great cars to its potential. But hey, it done wonders for Nissan.
10-01-2008 | 02:46 PM
#23
Banned
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 77
No need to apologize (I kinda wonder where you went for awhile and remember reading that thread where you test drove the car ). Personally, I don't know if the car used was a ringer and if it is, I don't really care as I don't think Nissan is the only guilty part. I don't buy my car based on ring times and I'm sure most people don't either. I do see where your coming from though, the inconsistent 1/4 times and dyno numbers lend some bit of credibility to that belief.
I have never seen such a big deal made of ring times by manufacturers (hech, even Honda (next NSX) and Toyota (the on again off again LF-A)is getting into the mix). The vast majority of people out there will never drive any of these great cars to its potential. But hey, it done wonders for Nissan.
). Personally, I don't know if the car used was a ringer and if it is, I don't really care as I don't think Nissan is the only guilty part. I don't buy my car based on ring times and I'm sure most people don't either. I do see where your coming from though, the inconsistent 1/4 times and dyno numbers lend some bit of credibility to that belief. I have never seen such a big deal made of ring times by manufacturers (hech, even Honda (next NSX) and Toyota (the on again off again LF-A)is getting into the mix). The vast majority of people out there will never drive any of these great cars to its potential. But hey, it done wonders for Nissan.
Im in the works for a Black one right now
hoping to get the papers done by tomorrow. Love the car... but ive driven the GT2... and i dont belive the GTR would go round a track faster, but w/e. its not going to stop me or anyone else from buying it.
10-01-2008 | 02:49 PM
#24
GTR Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 77
yea, i agree with all the points you made.
Im in the works for a Black one right now hoping to get the papers done by tomorrow.
Love the car... but ive driven the GT2... and i dont belive the GTR would go round a track faster, but w/e. its not going to stop me or anyone else from buying it.
Im in the works for a Black one right now
hoping to get the papers done by tomorrow. Love the car... but ive driven the GT2... and i dont belive the GTR would go round a track faster, but w/e. its not going to stop me or anyone else from buying it.
?
10-01-2008 | 07:25 PM
#26
GTR Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 108
I realize that this little skirmish is over but just wanted to add that the ZR1 is more in the realm of 140k+ with mark up. There is not on on ebay being sold anywhere near MSRP. If I could find one 20k above what I paid for the GT-R I would buy and probably flip it (ZR1 isn't my style as much). It will be interesting to see if the V-Spec has the same happen to it.
10-02-2008 | 09:44 AM
#27
Banned
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 77
I realize that this little skirmish is over but just wanted to add that the ZR1 is more in the realm of 140k+ with mark up. There is not on on ebay being sold anywhere near MSRP. If I could find one 20k above what I paid for the GT-R I would buy and probably flip it (ZR1 isn't my style as much). It will be interesting to see if the V-Spec has the same happen to it.
and this isnt about msrp or markups, its about fabricated numbers.
the reason i took such offense to this and took the "other" side was because this was far from being the first time that nissan or other japanese companies practiced shady buisness.
Last edited by Camaro371; 10-02-2008 at 09:48 AM.
10-03-2008 | 10:44 AM
#28
GTR Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 77
A response from Nissan http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/03/n...t-r-ring-time/
"As expected, Nissan has responded to Porsche's claims that the GT-R isn't quite as fast as they say it is. In fact, representatives for the German automaker suggested that Nissan may have used racing slicks to achieve the 7:29:03 lap time of the Nürburgring. Says Nissan, "The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tires which are available to customers in the showroom. They're not trick tires – absolutely standard tires, normal road tires."
Despite the allegations, Nissan is remaining calm about the issue, adding that the fast time was set by its racing driver, Tochio Suzuki, and achieved using the GT-R's optional Dunlop tires. Could it be that Porsche purchased a model with the slightly slower Bridgestones? Maybe, but can having the right tires could account for a 25-second lap time difference? In any case, Nissan's taking the high-road, falling short of suggesting that Porsche's drivers are slow."
I had to lol at that comment
"As expected, Nissan has responded to Porsche's claims that the GT-R isn't quite as fast as they say it is. In fact, representatives for the German automaker suggested that Nissan may have used racing slicks to achieve the 7:29:03 lap time of the Nürburgring. Says Nissan, "The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tires which are available to customers in the showroom. They're not trick tires – absolutely standard tires, normal road tires."
Despite the allegations, Nissan is remaining calm about the issue, adding that the fast time was set by its racing driver, Tochio Suzuki, and achieved using the GT-R's optional Dunlop tires. Could it be that Porsche purchased a model with the slightly slower Bridgestones? Maybe, but can having the right tires could account for a 25-second lap time difference? In any case, Nissan's taking the high-road, falling short of suggesting that Porsche's drivers are slow."
I had to lol at that comment
10-03-2008 | 02:11 PM
#29
GTR Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 46
A response from Nissan http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/03/n...t-r-ring-time/
"As expected, Nissan has responded to Porsche's claims that the GT-R isn't quite as fast as they say it is. In fact, representatives for the German automaker suggested that Nissan may have used racing slicks to achieve the 7:29:03 lap time of the Nürburgring. Says Nissan, "The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tires which are available to customers in the showroom. They're not trick tires – absolutely standard tires, normal road tires."
Despite the allegations, Nissan is remaining calm about the issue, adding that the fast time was set by its racing driver, Tochio Suzuki, and achieved using the GT-R's optional Dunlop tires. Could it be that Porsche purchased a model with the slightly slower Bridgestones? Maybe, but can having the right tires could account for a 25-second lap time difference? In any case, Nissan's taking the high-road, falling short of suggesting that Porsche's drivers are slow."
I had to lol at that comment
"As expected, Nissan has responded to Porsche's claims that the GT-R isn't quite as fast as they say it is. In fact, representatives for the German automaker suggested that Nissan may have used racing slicks to achieve the 7:29:03 lap time of the Nürburgring. Says Nissan, "The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tires which are available to customers in the showroom. They're not trick tires – absolutely standard tires, normal road tires."
Despite the allegations, Nissan is remaining calm about the issue, adding that the fast time was set by its racing driver, Tochio Suzuki, and achieved using the GT-R's optional Dunlop tires. Could it be that Porsche purchased a model with the slightly slower Bridgestones? Maybe, but can having the right tires could account for a 25-second lap time difference? In any case, Nissan's taking the high-road, falling short of suggesting that Porsche's drivers are slow."
I had to lol at that comment
10-09-2008 | 09:23 AM
#30
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1
I'm an all-over car nut (not a one-brand fanboy and currently own a c4 vette racecar and 2008 M3). I've had S2000's, 930s, Miata, etc., etc. etc. I like cars and really appreciate what Nissan has done with the GTR. It's just incredible what that machine can do for the price. I love that it blows away or keeps up with cars costing twice as much.
However, I also try to be pretty objective about things because I happen to believe that straight physics has a lot more to do with the performance of a car than the color/shape of the badge on the hood (this is why I have a cheesy $15,000 vette racecar that will blow away most $200k porsches at the track). So when someone starts making crazy performance claims, my left eyebrow goes up.
A while back, I was discussing nurburgring times with a guy over on the M3 forum who believes the M3 (which I own but look at objectively) is the shizzle my nizzle. I ended up putting together some numbers that compared nurburgring lap times of a wide variety of different cars to their power to weight ratios. Interestingly, very few cars are more or less than one standard deviation away from the mean time estimated based on power to weight. There are a couple of cars that breakout a bit like the GT porsches and the M3 CSL, but not by much.
Then you look at the GTR. As they say, a picture is worth 1000 words:
The GTR may be just that fast, or they may all be ringers, but the data would seem to indicate otherwise in a fairly dramatic fashion. In any case, if you take the time projected by the straight math, the GTR should run 22 seconds slower than Nissan's time (Porsche got 25 seconds slower I think).
Nissan may have figured out how to beat physics with it's sophisticated 4wd, advanced transmission, etc., but my left eyebrow is still twitching a bit at this claim. It's pretty far out there. Let's wait and see what an objective 3rd party can achieve, because Nissan's claim is pretty darn aggressive.
However, I also try to be pretty objective about things because I happen to believe that straight physics has a lot more to do with the performance of a car than the color/shape of the badge on the hood (this is why I have a cheesy $15,000 vette racecar that will blow away most $200k porsches at the track). So when someone starts making crazy performance claims, my left eyebrow goes up.
A while back, I was discussing nurburgring times with a guy over on the M3 forum who believes the M3 (which I own but look at objectively) is the shizzle my nizzle. I ended up putting together some numbers that compared nurburgring lap times of a wide variety of different cars to their power to weight ratios. Interestingly, very few cars are more or less than one standard deviation away from the mean time estimated based on power to weight. There are a couple of cars that breakout a bit like the GT porsches and the M3 CSL, but not by much.
Then you look at the GTR. As they say, a picture is worth 1000 words:
The GTR may be just that fast, or they may all be ringers, but the data would seem to indicate otherwise in a fairly dramatic fashion. In any case, if you take the time projected by the straight math, the GTR should run 22 seconds slower than Nissan's time (Porsche got 25 seconds slower I think).
Nissan may have figured out how to beat physics with it's sophisticated 4wd, advanced transmission, etc., but my left eyebrow is still twitching a bit at this claim. It's pretty far out there. Let's wait and see what an objective 3rd party can achieve, because Nissan's claim is pretty darn aggressive.