# of Skyline GT-R's in the US & Import Rules
07-18-2006 | 04:16 PM
#21
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 19
Please forgive if I've been unclear in any way, but I am certainly not building a car intended for drag race. As I previously wrote:
...and...
My whole point of that post was to demonstrate that I don't agree with you on the point that there's no in-between of 450-500 BHP and 800-1000 BHP.
As for power figures I don't really care much about them at all, first and foremost I care about the driving experience of the car (as I'm not into competitions) and secondly I would be far more interested in lap times, as they tell more about how the car has been built, and that is what's really a credit to its owner.
There's no need putting a big power engine into a car that can make any use of it, as I'm quite sure you already know. Sorry if I come across as a person who has a knack for pointing out the obvious.
Originally Posted by Alecci
Concerning the engine improvements I aim to build a car that performs the same way (not the same figures that is) that the Mine's BNR34 does, which means I will build it to handle 600 BHP at the most, but with emphasis on response and durability. If all goes as planned, all the engine internals should be able to handle somewhere between 900 and 1200 BHP.
Originally Posted by Alecci
I intend to use the car mainly for track days, car shows and as a leisure vehicle during the summer.
As for power figures I don't really care much about them at all, first and foremost I care about the driving experience of the car (as I'm not into competitions) and secondly I would be far more interested in lap times, as they tell more about how the car has been built, and that is what's really a credit to its owner.
There's no need putting a big power engine into a car that can make any use of it, as I'm quite sure you already know. Sorry if I come across as a person who has a knack for pointing out the obvious.
07-18-2006 | 04:39 PM
#22
GTR Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 869
"My whole point of that post was to demonstrate that I don't agree with you on the point that there's no in-between of 450-500 BHP and 800-1000 BHP."
but it's pretty much true. you would need to build the car UP TO 800HP to then DETUNE it for lower HP. once you get up to about 500HP, it takes MUCH, MUCH more work and investment of different parts, money, time, to go to another level. and typically that "next level" is 800HP. NOT 600.
but it's pretty much true. you would need to build the car UP TO 800HP to then DETUNE it for lower HP. once you get up to about 500HP, it takes MUCH, MUCH more work and investment of different parts, money, time, to go to another level. and typically that "next level" is 800HP. NOT 600.
07-18-2006 | 04:59 PM
#23
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 19
On the BCNR33 few people dare to exceed the 600 BHP figure in regards of how much power the pistons and the gearbox can handle. The intercooler also flows at its maximum capacity at this stage of tuning, but it would then be very restrictive. That 600 BHP mark is what most people I've heard on the subject says is the top score that these parts can safely handle.
Perhaps we have different definitions of what a "stage" is. The definition of the word that I'm used to is when it becomes a lot more expensive to go beyond a certain point in terms of power figures.
Starting to work on the internals and upgrading the gearbox is such a point as those are quite expensive operations, and therefore I (and many others with me) consider the 600 BHP mark a stage in itself. In addition, you don't really need to make any further modifications to reach 600 BHP than you need to do to hit 500 BHP.
The reason why I would choose to build the engine internals to handle up to 900 BHP or more, is because of durability. An engine built for 900 BHP usually handles a power figure of 600 BHP better and for a longer duration of time than an engine built for 600 BHP. That's called margins, and I suspect you have kept those in mind when you claim that 500 BHP represents a stage in itself.
If you tune your car correctly you will probably not notice much difference between a 500 BHP car and 600 BHP car on a GT race track, but if you're an experienced driver that knows how to handle your car, those 100 BHP that make up the difference will make just that... Quite a difference.
It seems to me that we will not get any further in convincing each other of what is this and what is that, so for my own part I will leave it at this and hope that we understand each other even though we don't agree with each other.
For now I thank you for your time, the pleasure of your company and bid you a good night (over here it's now 01:08 AM).
Perhaps we have different definitions of what a "stage" is. The definition of the word that I'm used to is when it becomes a lot more expensive to go beyond a certain point in terms of power figures.
Starting to work on the internals and upgrading the gearbox is such a point as those are quite expensive operations, and therefore I (and many others with me) consider the 600 BHP mark a stage in itself. In addition, you don't really need to make any further modifications to reach 600 BHP than you need to do to hit 500 BHP.
The reason why I would choose to build the engine internals to handle up to 900 BHP or more, is because of durability. An engine built for 900 BHP usually handles a power figure of 600 BHP better and for a longer duration of time than an engine built for 600 BHP. That's called margins, and I suspect you have kept those in mind when you claim that 500 BHP represents a stage in itself.
If you tune your car correctly you will probably not notice much difference between a 500 BHP car and 600 BHP car on a GT race track, but if you're an experienced driver that knows how to handle your car, those 100 BHP that make up the difference will make just that... Quite a difference.
It seems to me that we will not get any further in convincing each other of what is this and what is that, so for my own part I will leave it at this and hope that we understand each other even though we don't agree with each other.
For now I thank you for your time, the pleasure of your company and bid you a good night (over here it's now 01:08 AM).
07-18-2006 | 05:16 PM
#24
GTR Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 869
Originally Posted by Alecci
On the BCNR33 few people dare to exceed the 600 BHP figure in regards of how much power the pistons and the gearbox can handle. The intercooler also flows at its maximum capacity at this stage of tuning, but it would then be very restrictive. That 600 BHP mark is what most people I've heard on the subject says is the top score that these parts can safely handle.
Perhaps we have different definitions of what a "stage" is. The definition of the word that I'm used to is when it becomes a lot more expensive to go beyond a certain point in terms of power figures.
Starting to work on the internals and upgrading the gearbox is such a point as those are quite expensive operations, and therefore I (and many others with me) consider the 600 BHP mark a stage in itself. In addition, you don't really need to make any further modifications to reach 600 BHP than you need to do to hit 500 BHP.
The reason why I would choose to build the engine internals to handle up to 900 BHP or more, is because of durability. An engine built for 900 BHP usually handles a power figure of 600 BHP better and for a longer duration of time than an engine built for 600 BHP. That's called margins, and I suspect you have kept those in mind when you claim that 500 BHP represents a stage in itself.
If you tune your car correctly you will probably not notice much difference between a 500 BHP car and 600 BHP car on a GT race track, but if you're an experienced driver that knows how to handle your car, those 100 BHP that make up the difference will make just that... Quite a difference.
It seems to me that we will not get any further in convincing each other of what is this and what is that, so for my own part I will leave it at this and hope that we understand each other even though we don't agree with each other.
For now I thank you for your time, the pleasure of your company and bid you a good night (over here it's now 01:08 AM).
Perhaps we have different definitions of what a "stage" is. The definition of the word that I'm used to is when it becomes a lot more expensive to go beyond a certain point in terms of power figures.
Starting to work on the internals and upgrading the gearbox is such a point as those are quite expensive operations, and therefore I (and many others with me) consider the 600 BHP mark a stage in itself. In addition, you don't really need to make any further modifications to reach 600 BHP than you need to do to hit 500 BHP.
The reason why I would choose to build the engine internals to handle up to 900 BHP or more, is because of durability. An engine built for 900 BHP usually handles a power figure of 600 BHP better and for a longer duration of time than an engine built for 600 BHP. That's called margins, and I suspect you have kept those in mind when you claim that 500 BHP represents a stage in itself.
If you tune your car correctly you will probably not notice much difference between a 500 BHP car and 600 BHP car on a GT race track, but if you're an experienced driver that knows how to handle your car, those 100 BHP that make up the difference will make just that... Quite a difference.
It seems to me that we will not get any further in convincing each other of what is this and what is that, so for my own part I will leave it at this and hope that we understand each other even though we don't agree with each other.
For now I thank you for your time, the pleasure of your company and bid you a good night (over here it's now 01:08 AM).
about 550BHP is getting to the limit of what you can do before you must upgrade entire drivetrain components, like the crank, rods, and pistons and transmission. as well, the rear end and suspension must be changed, too, to put the power to the ground and not destroy other parts of the driveline. sure, the stock internals may be able to handle beyond that, but to extract usable power beyond about 550BHP, to put it down safely and efficiently, it becomes exponentially more difficult and expensive. this is why i mentioned the "leap" to about 800BHP. the 600-780BHP range is sort of a "no man's land" that really can only realistically be achieved by detuning a very high HP engine.
certainly, you can start from scratch, build up a engine to handle 900BHP, and it may be "bullet proof." and extremely strong. and you can detune it to a lower level. but doing it the other way around, to try to climb the HP up to beyond 600HP without entirely re-doing the engine, is very, very impractical.
07-19-2006 | 06:29 AM
#25
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by bonzelite
about 550BHP is getting to the limit of what you can do before you must upgrade entire drivetrain components, like the crank, rods, and pistons and transmission.
That's why I see no point, really, to stop att 500 BHP or 550 BHP, if we're talking power at the flywheel. The only part that from my understanding supports that point of view, would be the intercooler, which is at maximum efficience at about 500-550 BHP while at maximum flow at 600 BHP.
The crank, in addition, would probably not make any difference to power, but you can get a more smooth running engine with a balanced/counter-balanced crankshaft, and you may gain response from lightening it.
The pistons, like I mentioned before, should be able to safely withstand a power output of 600 BHP, and simply upgrading them to similar but tougher items would not do much powerwise, if anything at all. Increasing the bore (installing oversized pistons), however, will accomplish that task. The same applies to the crankshaft and the conrods, just uprating them wouldn't do much beyond better durability and improvement and response, while stroking the engine would at least improve your low end torque quite considerably.
To avoid any further misunderstandings, I state once again that my goal is 600 BHP at the flywheel, but having the internals of the engine rated to a power figure a bit beyond that is to re-assure durability. Otherwise it will be built for response (since I'm more into GT racing than drag racing), and that would include uprating the pistons, conrods and crankshaft to lighter and more balanced items.
The rest of the engine, however, such as fuel system, ignition, turbochargers, inlet and exhaust systems will be kept at a level more commensurate with expected power output (once again, 600 BHP at the flywheel). Injectors, of course, will be a bit bigger to ensure fuel supply and avoid lean running of the engine. Also I want to be able to mix my fuel with ethanol (in Sweden labeled E85), in order to bring fuel costs down.
One of the main aims for me is just that, to have a "bullet proof" and "extremely strong" engine, and if that means that I must spend a bigger load of bucks only to detune the engine, so be it. Not that I'm taking that lightly (as I'm neither rich nor have generous and wealthy parents), but I'm willing to let this project take its toll in terms of both time and costs to ensure that I get what I want. In the end, I hope to be able to keep this car and enjoy the pleasure of driving it for quite a long time.
How much of that power is usable is more determined by the chassis and suspension of the car in combination with the driver's skills and experience. This fact, I believe, has been verified many times on GT race tracks around the world.
Once again, many thanks for your time and interest in my points, whether you agree with them or not.
07-19-2006 | 09:39 AM
#27
GTRForums Guru
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by Alecci
From what I understand - having spent some years browsing through many Internet forums and talking to other Skyline-tuners, both private and professionals - the crank, rods and transmission can handle well beyond the 550 BHP mark. From what I've been told the crank can handle about 800 BHP, the rods about 700 BHP and the transmission varies between the models (BCNR33 = 600 BHP while BNR34 = 800 BHP). Driveshafts are said to be one of the toughest parts of the Skyline GT-R as they can safely handle up to 900 BHP. All these figures being measured at the flywheel (not the wheels, to avoid any misunderstandings).
That's why I see no point, really, to stop att 500 BHP or 550 BHP, if we're talking power at the flywheel. The only part that from my understanding supports that point of view, would be the intercooler, which is at maximum efficience at about 500-550 BHP while at maximum flow at 600 BHP.
The crank, in addition, would probably not make any difference to power, but you can get a more smooth running engine with a balanced/counter-balanced crankshaft, and you may gain response from lightening it.
The pistons, like I mentioned before, should be able to safely withstand a power output of 600 BHP, and simply upgrading them to similar but tougher items would not do much powerwise, if anything at all. Increasing the bore (installing oversized pistons), however, will accomplish that task. The same applies to the crankshaft and the conrods, just uprating them wouldn't do much beyond better durability and improvement and response, while stroking the engine would at least improve your low end torque quite considerably.
To avoid any further misunderstandings, I state once again that my goal is 600 BHP at the flywheel, but having the internals of the engine rated to a power figure a bit beyond that is to re-assure durability. Otherwise it will be built for response (since I'm more into GT racing than drag racing), and that would include uprating the pistons, conrods and crankshaft to lighter and more balanced items.
The rest of the engine, however, such as fuel system, ignition, turbochargers, inlet and exhaust systems will be kept at a level more commensurate with expected power output (once again, 600 BHP at the flywheel). Injectors, of course, will be a bit bigger to ensure fuel supply and avoid lean running of the engine. Also I want to be able to mix my fuel with ethanol (in Sweden labeled E85), in order to bring fuel costs down.
One of the main aims for me is just that, to have a "bullet proof" and "extremely strong" engine, and if that means that I must spend a bigger load of bucks only to detune the engine, so be it. Not that I'm taking that lightly (as I'm neither rich nor have generous and wealthy parents), but I'm willing to let this project take its toll in terms of both time and costs to ensure that I get what I want. In the end, I hope to be able to keep this car and enjoy the pleasure of driving it for quite a long time.
How much of that power is usable is more determined by the chassis and suspension of the car in combination with the driver's skills and experience. This fact, I believe, has been verified many times on GT race tracks around the world.
Once again, many thanks for your time and interest in my points, whether you agree with them or not.
That's why I see no point, really, to stop att 500 BHP or 550 BHP, if we're talking power at the flywheel. The only part that from my understanding supports that point of view, would be the intercooler, which is at maximum efficience at about 500-550 BHP while at maximum flow at 600 BHP.
The crank, in addition, would probably not make any difference to power, but you can get a more smooth running engine with a balanced/counter-balanced crankshaft, and you may gain response from lightening it.
The pistons, like I mentioned before, should be able to safely withstand a power output of 600 BHP, and simply upgrading them to similar but tougher items would not do much powerwise, if anything at all. Increasing the bore (installing oversized pistons), however, will accomplish that task. The same applies to the crankshaft and the conrods, just uprating them wouldn't do much beyond better durability and improvement and response, while stroking the engine would at least improve your low end torque quite considerably.
To avoid any further misunderstandings, I state once again that my goal is 600 BHP at the flywheel, but having the internals of the engine rated to a power figure a bit beyond that is to re-assure durability. Otherwise it will be built for response (since I'm more into GT racing than drag racing), and that would include uprating the pistons, conrods and crankshaft to lighter and more balanced items.
The rest of the engine, however, such as fuel system, ignition, turbochargers, inlet and exhaust systems will be kept at a level more commensurate with expected power output (once again, 600 BHP at the flywheel). Injectors, of course, will be a bit bigger to ensure fuel supply and avoid lean running of the engine. Also I want to be able to mix my fuel with ethanol (in Sweden labeled E85), in order to bring fuel costs down.
One of the main aims for me is just that, to have a "bullet proof" and "extremely strong" engine, and if that means that I must spend a bigger load of bucks only to detune the engine, so be it. Not that I'm taking that lightly (as I'm neither rich nor have generous and wealthy parents), but I'm willing to let this project take its toll in terms of both time and costs to ensure that I get what I want. In the end, I hope to be able to keep this car and enjoy the pleasure of driving it for quite a long time.
How much of that power is usable is more determined by the chassis and suspension of the car in combination with the driver's skills and experience. This fact, I believe, has been verified many times on GT race tracks around the world.
Once again, many thanks for your time and interest in my points, whether you agree with them or not.
Its not a question of de-tuning as mentioned earlier, its a question of how you want the power band to hit. 800 hp on a 2.6, is going to be pretty laggy, not only that, the power band will look pretty darn crappy for a GT style car.
08-24-2006 | 04:34 PM
#28
Newbie
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2
To Show Or To Go??
Hey i am a newbie from Cali or carb land... For me show is nice but i would start of with go... For instance i would start with brake pads, steel braided brake lines, rotors, tires, coilovers, springs, sway bars, bushings, strut bars, light Rims, cold air intake, turbo exhaust, electronic boost controller, turbo timers, achol/O2 injection, fuel pump, fuel rail, fuel injectors, cams, interior cooler, radiator, oil cooler, lsd's, clutch, grounding wires, spark plugs, spark plug wires, and a ecu reflash or stand alone ecu. These are some small things i would do before tearing into the motor and turbos... like i said i am a newbie and there are thing i am not thinking of or am forgetting so please forgive me...
Then i would worry about esthetics.. In this area i don't subscribe to spo-com theory. I believe that the form follows function. Aero kits should help with down force and cornering speed. Oh and carbon fiber to reduce the curb wieght of Godzilla...
But thats just me...
p.s. your english is execellent i only know 2 launges english and bad english......
Then i would worry about esthetics.. In this area i don't subscribe to spo-com theory. I believe that the form follows function. Aero kits should help with down force and cornering speed. Oh and carbon fiber to reduce the curb wieght of Godzilla...
But thats just me...
p.s. your english is execellent i only know 2 launges english and bad english......
Last edited by docdismantel; 08-24-2006 at 04:42 PM.
08-25-2006 | 03:06 AM
#29
GTR Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by docdismantel
Hey i am a newbie from Cali or carb land... For me show is nice but i would start of with go... For instance i would start with brake pads, steel braided brake lines, rotors, tires, coilovers, springs, sway bars, bushings, strut bars, light Rims, cold air intake, turbo exhaust, electronic boost controller, turbo timers, achol/O2 injection, fuel pump, fuel rail, fuel injectors, cams, interior cooler, radiator, oil cooler, lsd's, clutch, grounding wires, spark plugs, spark plug wires, and a ecu reflash or stand alone ecu. These are some small things i would do before tearing into the motor and turbos... like i said i am a newbie and there are thing i am not thinking of or am forgetting so please forgive me...
Then i would worry about esthetics.. In this area i don't subscribe to spo-com theory. I believe that the form follows function. Aero kits should help with down force and cornering speed. Oh and carbon fiber to reduce the curb wieght of Godzilla...
But thats just me...
p.s. your english is execellent i only know 2 launges english and bad english......
Then i would worry about esthetics.. In this area i don't subscribe to spo-com theory. I believe that the form follows function. Aero kits should help with down force and cornering speed. Oh and carbon fiber to reduce the curb wieght of Godzilla...
But thats just me...
p.s. your english is execellent i only know 2 launges english and bad english......
Stock breaks are fine for what he's going to be doing he just needs some better pads with better bite.
The stock front LSD is weak usualy giving out around 400ish hp, with it being in and part of the oil pan you don't want it to break.
The stock radaitor is very good no need to change it right away there's other things that could use more attention.
The clutch would be one of the first mods. Twin plate Nismo copper mix
Alecci it is very easy to obtain 500~600 with N1 pistons and a R33 crank but you need to address rod bolts, you also need to look into an oil pump if your going to do any racing. Along with the greddy oil pan extention. Also coating the bearings will drasticaly increase the life of the motor.
Also you need to think about cyl #6 it is the lean cylinder, possible solutions are porting the stock manifold, new mani, or custom tunning just for #6.
The trany is going to be, well a pain there not cheep I'd keep the stock one tell it breaks. People have broken them with as little as 400 and have had them hold up to 700 it all depends on how you drive. But I will suggest shock proff heavy it will help with 3rd gear.
What turbos were you thinking about?
08-25-2006 | 08:50 AM
#30
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 19
I've placed an order for the following parts:
TOMEI Adjustable Inlet Cam Pulley
TOMEI Adjustable Exhaust Cam Pulley
TOMEI Cam Bearing Bolts & Caps
TOMEI Head Bolts & Caps
TOMEI Crank Bolts & Caps
TOMEI Connetring Rod Bearings/Metals
TOMEI Forged Connecring Rods 21 Pin with TOMEI Connecting Rod Bolts
TOMEI Forged Pistons 87.0mm 21 Pin with TOMEI Piston Pins and TOMEI Titanium Piston Rings
TOMEI Gasket Combination 87.0mm 1.2mm
TOMEI Heavy Duty Oil Pump
TOMEI Oil Pan Baffle Plate
NISSAN N1 Water Pump
TOMEI Air Flow Meter x 2
TOMEI Air Flow Meter Adapter x 2
APEXI Turbo Timer
APEXI Turbo Timer Harness
APEXI Power FC + Commander
APEXI Power FC Boost Controller
APEXI Power Intake
SARD 800cc Injectors (Twin Hole Spray)
SARD 280l Fuel Pump x 2
SARD Fuel Delivery Pipe
SARD Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator Type-R
SARD Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator Adapter
ATS Type-R Twin Plate Carbon Clutch with lightened and balanced ATS flywheel
GARRETT Turbochargers (not sure of model, but can handle about 820 PS)
I'm not sure about camshafts yet, still contemplating my alternatives. I will probably use TOMEI ProCam 260° 10.8 Lift and uprate other head parts such as springs, etc.
The cylinders will be bored and honed to accomodate the oversize pistons.
The head will be ported and polished.
The crankshaft will be polished and balanced.
The pistons and connecting rods will be balanced.
The following parts will be custom made:
Inlet Plenum
Complete Hard Pipe Kit incl Radiator Pipe
Intercooler
Radiator
Oilcooler
Exhaust Manifold - High Mount Twin Setup
Extension Pipes (L-bows)
Downpipe
Decat
Catback Exhaust System
The 6-speed MT of the R34 GT-R is known to be able to handle high power figures, I've heard of some people running 800-850 PS (flywheel) with them, we even have one in Sweden (the one I bought my turbochargers from). The R34 GT-R also has a N1 crankshaft as standard, so I'm not too worried about that.
We'll see when spring comes how all this works out. I'll have a lot to do before the car's finished and mapped properly.
TOMEI Adjustable Inlet Cam Pulley
TOMEI Adjustable Exhaust Cam Pulley
TOMEI Cam Bearing Bolts & Caps
TOMEI Head Bolts & Caps
TOMEI Crank Bolts & Caps
TOMEI Connetring Rod Bearings/Metals
TOMEI Forged Connecring Rods 21 Pin with TOMEI Connecting Rod Bolts
TOMEI Forged Pistons 87.0mm 21 Pin with TOMEI Piston Pins and TOMEI Titanium Piston Rings
TOMEI Gasket Combination 87.0mm 1.2mm
TOMEI Heavy Duty Oil Pump
TOMEI Oil Pan Baffle Plate
NISSAN N1 Water Pump
TOMEI Air Flow Meter x 2
TOMEI Air Flow Meter Adapter x 2
APEXI Turbo Timer
APEXI Turbo Timer Harness
APEXI Power FC + Commander
APEXI Power FC Boost Controller
APEXI Power Intake
SARD 800cc Injectors (Twin Hole Spray)
SARD 280l Fuel Pump x 2
SARD Fuel Delivery Pipe
SARD Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator Type-R
SARD Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator Adapter
ATS Type-R Twin Plate Carbon Clutch with lightened and balanced ATS flywheel
GARRETT Turbochargers (not sure of model, but can handle about 820 PS)
I'm not sure about camshafts yet, still contemplating my alternatives. I will probably use TOMEI ProCam 260° 10.8 Lift and uprate other head parts such as springs, etc.
The cylinders will be bored and honed to accomodate the oversize pistons.
The head will be ported and polished.
The crankshaft will be polished and balanced.
The pistons and connecting rods will be balanced.
The following parts will be custom made:
Inlet Plenum
Complete Hard Pipe Kit incl Radiator Pipe
Intercooler
Radiator
Oilcooler
Exhaust Manifold - High Mount Twin Setup
Extension Pipes (L-bows)
Downpipe
Decat
Catback Exhaust System
The 6-speed MT of the R34 GT-R is known to be able to handle high power figures, I've heard of some people running 800-850 PS (flywheel) with them, we even have one in Sweden (the one I bought my turbochargers from). The R34 GT-R also has a N1 crankshaft as standard, so I'm not too worried about that.
We'll see when spring comes how all this works out. I'll have a lot to do before the car's finished and mapped properly.